Curse

Xenomortis · Jul 23, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Why split it? I thought everyone knew that ER builds are ridiculously strong and it's not used for anything else.

Swingline · Jul 23, 2011, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

So why not mention ritualists in your comparison?

Ritualists will always win when compared to any other class. The best comparison to the ele is the mesmer. To balance damage output between classes you either have to nerf armor ignoring damage and make the game a bit harder, fix HM armor or give the gimped classes a buff thus making the game easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It should also have been split then if the change was for PVP only. Why do skill splits exists if they arent being used when skills are changed for PVP?

Arena Net has said splitting a skill is like programming an entirely new skill into the game and can potentially lag or break the servers if there are too many skills.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Forget about the why split it thing for a minute, let me ask what my problem is:

Why even bother changing it? The new version is far worse than the old version was and will now actually see less use, not more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

and can potentially lag or break the servers if there are too many skills.

Source?

I dont believe that with the number of skills the game already has.

Shayne Hawke · Jul 23, 2011, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Why even bother changing it? The new version is far worse than the old version was and will now actually see less use, not more.

Because baby Aegis. PvP hasn't had anything like the old Aegis (PvP) for some time now, and some members of the GvG Krewe had some reasons for wanting to reintroduce such a skill, though perhaps not in the same way it was before. Don't ask me why; I'm not the brains behind the change.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I did disagree with the previous Aegis change for PVP, but I got the impression from peoples responses that the PVP community was happy with the old aegis gone.

Maybe the old aegis should have been kept in, and shield guardian should have been split and changed instead to the current aegis functionality for PVP, and its previous functionality for PVE, where yes it really was a damn good AoE heal skill.

Reformed · Jul 23, 2011, 01:47 PM // 13:47

They added at least a dozen new monster skills for WoC between the Ministry NPCs and the new Soul Explosion variants so...I gotta call bullshit on the 'degrades the client' argument. Not that I like the idea of yet another split skill between formats but come on.

Swingline · Jul 23, 2011, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Source?

I don't remember the source but many in this community know that arena net has said such a thing. Someone might even remember where they said it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I dont believe that with the number of skills the game already has.

I don't believe it either necessarily. I have always had the notion I will never know if it is true or not but I accept the fact they are very reluctant to create new skill splits and that there's nothing I can do to change that. I always kind of thought they don't know for sure what would happen but fear the game or the servers might have a massive crash and that they don't have the resources to deal with such an event. Its more or less precaution to prevent something like that from happening.

Tommy's · Jul 23, 2011, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It should also have been split then if the change was for PVP only. Why do skill splits exists if they arent being used when skills are changed for PVP?

Because I think Anet wants as little splits as possible. If every skill got a PvP variant, players needed to memorize even more skills, the balances probably get worse, because they need to test a lot more skills, and I bet it leaves a ton of programming problems too, leave alone the time invested in it.

Being able to do something doesn't always mean you should. These things often have downsides as well.

Edit: my browser hadn't really refreshed as I thought, so this comment is a bit late x) Ignore it if you want to.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Balances would always be easier with a PVE / PVP split. That was the reason why it was added in.

Essence Snow · Jul 23, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I think (ofc I could be wrong) what bhavv is saying is....Why should a skill that is used in PvE (majority of gw) be changed b/c of PvP (minority of gw) when the skill had 0 effect in pvp to begin with?

It's bascially a screw you to the pve eles that ran er prot/healers.

Lanier · Jul 23, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Balances would always be easier with a PVE / PVP split. That was the reason why it was added in.

Its funny how that was the original intention, and yet, balance in PvE has completely gone down the drain since the introduction of PvE/PvP splits. I honestly think that PvE would be a lot better overall if every single split skill (except smiters boon and aegis) were changed to the PvP version. Power creep would go waaaayyyyy down. As is though, splits exist, and as long as they exist, they need to be used to get at least some sort of balance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that balance in PvE would be a lot better if the splits had never existed, but as things are now, splits are necessary to get at least a little balance unless the team is willing to completely remove splits and go with the pvp version for all the skills.

Essence Snow · Jul 23, 2011, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I guess what I'm trying to say is that balance in PvE would be a lot better if the splits had never existed, but as things are now, splits are necessary to get at least a little balance unless the team is willing to completely remove splits and go with the pvp version for all the skills.

That would work if there wasn't a HM in pve where the same rules don't exactly apply

Killed u man · Jul 23, 2011, 02:39 PM // 14:39

This skill could potentially fuel a shitload of spike builds which "disappeared" with the change to Aegis.

I'm thinking Bloodspike (one form or the other), IV spike, FoC, Ele spikes (non invoke), ...

Aegis always was the backbone of these builds because you could have some form of immunity to pessure-builds (which is what kills spikes if they can stay alive). With this new skill, I really wonder how it'll play out in, for example, an IV spike with 2/3 copies of this.

DeBron · Jul 23, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Why couldn't they alter a skill that isn't used in PvE or PvP at all?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pensive_Guardian
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Purifying_Veil
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pacifism
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Supportive_Spirit
Also, I'm not sure why they chose to alter a skill that sees some use in PvE when a number of useless duplicate skills exist. Maybe it was a tad imba for ER Eles, but it isn't a groundbreaking change, just a bit annoying.

Apok · Jul 23, 2011, 03:11 PM // 15:11

^^ Pensive Guardian is actually used in PvP, just not as common. It's more of a safety measure when you KNOW if you're facing off against enchanted melee DPS.

zwei2stein · Jul 23, 2011, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It should also have been split then if the change was for PVP only. Why do skill splits exists if they arent being used when skills are changed for PVP?

If this skill was split for PvP and its new functionality was PvP only, I would be pissed.

A lot.

More than you propably.

I do not take it kindly when new fun toy is reserved for PvP only use. I am still pissed that I can not use PvP aegis in PvE.

So there.

DeBron · Jul 23, 2011, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

^^ Pensive Guardian is actually used in PvP, just not as common. It's more of a safety measure when you KNOW if you're facing off against enchanted melee DPS.

That's fair. Bad example I guess. All I'm saying is that they should goof around with the skills that only a handful of monsters use, would save some QQ.

AndrewSX · Jul 23, 2011, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Meh, i actually enjoyed old Shield guardian on my ER too. But is kinda obvious (due to cost-10e- and recharge -1sec-) that this is just a *little* hit for ER prot spammers.
The fact that the new one is a reworked aegis for meele+pressure counter (read: pvp dervs)....we'll see if will be actually used to.
Working on minions makes it kinda cool, but the duration/recharge ratio is too far from be really useful i fear. Needs more testing.

Skyy High · Jul 23, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

First off, when deciding whether or not to split a skill, the question is always "Why should we split this skill?" not "why shouldn't we?" There must be a damn good reason to introduce a skill split, because every skill that is split represents another wedge driven between PvE and PvP and another thing that players need to memorize between the two formats. Sorry, but "this change slightly inconveniences one of the most powerful heal/prot builds in the game, but leaves them still much better than monks at doing a monk's job," is not a good reason to split a skill. I cannot believe people are actually whining about a skill change because it grazes ER Prot. FFS, I'd be happy if ER itself got nerfed.

Furthermore, it's not like this skill will be useless in PvE. A skill that heals all allies in earshot, for a potentially large amount, but that is very dependent on the monk using it at exactly the right time? F*** yes! That's an awesome skill! We should be happy that they turned a skill that was absolutely goddamn useless for everyone except an OP secondary abuse build into a unique and interesting skill. It's not going to save your ass if you spam it randomly, but damn will you feel good when you can get 4 or more triggers out of it.

Swingline · Jul 23, 2011, 03:44 PM // 15:44

After reading the wiki page on this skill I can see a future for it in pvp.